Bug 7432

Summary: Cyrillic small "b" looks inappropriate for a modern non-cursive font
Product: DejaVu Reporter: Pavel Roskin <proski>
Component: SansAssignee: Deja Vu bugs <dejavu-bugs>
Status: RESOLVED FIXED QA Contact:
Severity: normal    
Priority: high CC: nicolas.mailhot, tetromino
Version: unspecified   
Hardware: All   
OS: All   
Whiteboard:
i915 platform: i915 features:
Attachments: Show all DejaVu fonts in Cyrillic (base Russian letters only)

Description Pavel Roskin 2006-07-05 12:38:48 UTC
Cyrillic small "b" looks like Greek small delta in DejaVu Sans and DejaVu Sans
Condensed (but not in DejaVu Sans Mono, DejaVu Serif or DejaVu Serif Condensed).
 This appearance seems too fancy and archaic for a font that is going to be
default for the free desktop.

Most other Sans fonts, including Tahoma, Verdana, Numbus Sans L and URW Gothic L
use a 6-like representation with an ascender.  It is also used in in Dejavu Sans
Mono, DejaVu Serif or DejaVu Serif Condensed.

A more formal font could use a version without ascender, just a scaled down
capital Cyrillic "b", but it's probably not good for readability.

I think the delta-like small Cyrillic "b" should be replaced with the 6-like
small Cyrillic "b" from DejaVu Sans Mono, perhaps with minimal adjustments.
Comment 1 Ben Laenen 2006-07-05 14:46:59 UTC
The be that looks like delta originates from the Serbian form of be. It is a 
known issue and it is likely to be replaced in the near future (the Serbian be 
was already replaced in Serif and Mono, by Andrey Panov). Sans should follow 
soon.
Comment 2 Nicolas Mailhot 2006-07-07 04:11:19 UTC
*** Bug 7452 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
Comment 3 Alexandre Rostovtsev 2006-07-07 10:57:44 UTC
I'm the guy behind bug 7452.
The following things look wrong to me in Russian DejaVu 2.7:

In DejaVu Sans, the "b" is a medieval relic (as Pavel Roskin already said). The
descenders on the bottom of "d", "ts", and "sch" look too long -- they are as
long as the tail of "u", but in virtually all Russian typefaces, they are only
small downward notches. More annoyingly, the left stem of "d" and "l" curves to
the left too much -- in Russian typefaces where the "d" and "l" have a flat top,
the  left stem is supposed to be pretty much vertical and curve left only a
little at the very bottom, sort of like the Latin letter "J", but in DejaVu Sans
the stems look more like the bottom-right quarter of a circle.

In DejaVu Sans and Sans Mono, the "r" and "R" look a bit weird, almost as if
they were mirror-images of Latin "R". Either the left tail of the "R" should be
more vertical, or it should join the loop more to the right. Plus the DejaVu
tail of the "R" is, imho, too convex. It looks especially annoying in upper-case
"R" in small font sizes -- there, the left tail and the bottom of the loop look
like they form the upper-left quarter of a circle, while the effect is much more
polygonal in virtuall all Russian sans-serif typefaces. Look at the way Arial
and Bitstream Vera Sans do the "R"...

Finally -- I am not sure whether this is a bug in my freetype or in DejaVu --
some Russian letters seem to be rendered differently from the others of the same
face at the same size. This problem affects lower-case "hard sign" (U+044A), "y"
(U+044B), and "e" (U+044D) in most of the DejaVu faces. Depending on the
selected font size, these letters are either rendered too large compared to
their neightbors, or too drawn too fuzzily, or are half-bolded for some reason.

Of course, all of this is my personal preference, but I am confident that most
people who are used to standard Russian fonts and Russian printed material will
agree with me.
Comment 4 Pavel Roskin 2006-07-07 13:43:12 UTC
Created attachment 6158 [details]
Show all DejaVu fonts in Cyrillic (base Russian letters only)

All DejaVu fonts except "DejaVu Sans ExtraLight" (no idea how to make it work)
Comment 5 Pavel Roskin 2006-07-07 14:41:02 UTC
Regarding comment #3:

I agree about descenders, but we don't want to cut them too much.  The font
should work on screen in low resolutions.  Cutting the descenders by 1/3 should
be fine.

Regarding small "d" and "l", I think "d" is fine in "Sans" and Sans Condensed",
but "l" is indeed too curved.  It could be shrunk horizontally a bit.

I don't see anything wrong with "r".  If you mean "ya", then indeed it's too
"puffy" and could be shrunk in the lower half.

Now, since this becomes a bug for all Cyrillic letters, here's what I'd like to
see fixed.

Capital "Tche" is higher than other letters in Sans Mono bold and Bold Oblique.

Shorter middle stem in "sha" and "shcha" (both small and capital) in Sans and
Sans Condensed creates a "dip" on top of the letter, which is distracting and
annoying.  I prefer the letter tops aligned.

Dots over capital "Yo" are not centered, which is mostly visible in Sans.

The top of the "hard sign" (both small and capital) is a bit too long in Sans
and Sans Condensed.

Not only the descenders on "tse" and "shcha" (both small and capital) are too
long, the lines leading to them are too long in Sans and Sans Condensed (i.e
they don't need to be so far to the right).
Comment 6 Alexandre Rostovtsev 2006-07-07 15:15:32 UTC
re comment 5:
Yes, I meant "ya" not "r". Very sorry -- hash table collision in brain. The
DejaVu Sans "ya" looks too much like a latin "R"...

Regarding the descenders of "d" at low resolutions: I was mosrtly thinking of
font size 10-13. At those sizes, the descenders could eaily be shrunk by 50%. I
think the reason the "d" doesn't look like it needs shrinking is because the
annoyance of long descenders is overshadowing the annoyance of excessive width.

I don't care either way about the middle stem in "sh" and "sch". I'm fine with
it long, and I'm fine with it short.

I fully agree with your comments about "ch", "yo", and the tails of the "hard
sign", "ts", and "sch". It seems DejaVu designers went a bit overboard with the
size of all the tails and descenders.
Comment 7 andu 2006-07-23 04:13:01 UTC
There are quite a lot of different aspects discussed here. I would like to vote 
for the original title that cyrillic letter "b" in DejaVu sans is inappropriate 
for a classical sans font. 
 
As for differently rendered hard sing, "y" and "e", I posted two separate bugs, 
namely 7596 and 7602. 
Comment 8 Andrey V. Panov 2006-08-02 20:07:30 UTC
Most issueas including "be" are fixed now in svn tree. The issue with "ya" is 
addressed to https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=7702 . 

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