Bug 88570

Summary:	systemd is malware
Product:	systemd	Reporter:	Christopher <laserhawk64>
Component:	general	Assignee:	systemd-bugs
Status:	RESOLVED INVALID	QA Contact:	systemd-bugs
Severity:	blocker
Priority:	medium
Version:	unspecified
Hardware:	All
OS:	Linux (All)
Whiteboard:
i915 platform:		i915 features:

Description Christopher 2015-01-19 03:10:51 UTC

Malware is defined by Wikipedia as "...any software used to disrupt computer operation, gather sensitive information, or gain access to private computer systems."

Wikipedia goes on to characterize malware as software constructed with malicious intent, and specifically requires it to "...[act] against the requirements of the computer user...".

There are several init systems for Linux, including (but not limited to) sysvinit, busybox-init, initng, Mudur, OpenRC, runit, and s6. All of these init systems are satisfactory for providing the required functions of a Linux init system; there is no need whatsoever for systemd. Put a little more bluntly: systemd is unnecessary cruft.

There is no longer a pile of bugfix (etc) requests for systemd. The former pile has instead blossomed into a rather sizable mountain range of truly remarkable dimensions indeed... yet, from all reports, few if any of these issues, problems, bugs, etc, have been addressed in any manner at all! (I'm sure that this one will be given the same treatment... that said, "hope springs eternal"...) The result is that systemd is profoundly schizophrenic in its functionality -- where that functionality exists in the first place. This has been quite nicely documented; all you need to find it is a simple Web search (with your service of choice) for 'systemd'. I'll leave that as an exercise for the readers, since the volume is *ahem* a little overwhelming for one person to process. A trip through this very bugtracker's volumes of issues should be quite revealing as well, for the record.

On top of all that, systemd is extremely complicated. Needlessly so. No other init system, to my knowledge, is anywhere near as complicated. There is no realistic reason for this kitchen-sink level of complication, particularly in light of the *nix philosophy of 'programs should do one thing and do it well'. systemd is a monolithic application and categorically antithetical to this philosophy.

Further, Linux is about choice. For example, WMs/DEs. Some people prefer JWM. Some people prefer LXDE, or IceWM, or GNOME 3, or MATE. (Personally, I'm an XFCE4 kind of guy.) systemd effectively removes choice. If the major distros all use systemd, along with most of the "little guys"... where does that leave the user, in regards to choice of init?

I require, as a Linux user, my distro of choice to adhere to its principles. Going off on a wild goose chase in search of some sort of "Monty Python"-esque search for the Holy Grail of init systems is most certainly far outside my user requirements. I'm not alone in that, as you will discover if you read the profound quantities of information that explain in copious and painful detail exactly how quixotic and misguided this effort really is.

Perfection has long been cited as the enemy of the good. systemd is trying to be perfect. Is that really what you want?

If my choices are Linux with systemd, or Windows, or Mac... I'll take Windows any day of the week. I'm not alone, there, either... ;)

Comment 1 Kay Sievers 2015-01-19 10:15:08 UTC

Get a life.

Comment 2 dwillar 2015-01-19 17:23:25 UTC

This is far from being resolved and certainly is not invalid. Why should the greater Linux community be FORCED into being beta testers for Red Hat? It is time the Linux community stood up to this systemd and turn it into something useful or flush it down the drain of history. Systemd flies in the face of everything Linux!

Comment 3 Christopher 2015-01-19 17:36:38 UTC

Thank you, dwillar :) I knew I wasn't alone.

Also, I already have a life... why do I need another one? ;) :P that said, I'm not surprised this was dismissed with no significant thought. After all, as pointed out in the original bug filing, you haven't fixed any meaningful quantity of the other issues... why should this be an exception?

Reopened. I'm nothing if not persistent.

Comment 4 Lennart Poettering 2015-01-19 18:19:53 UTC

(In reply to dwillar from comment #2)
> This is far from being resolved and certainly is not invalid. Why should the
> greater Linux community be FORCED into being beta testers for Red Hat? It is
> time the Linux community stood up to this systemd and turn it into something
> useful or flush it down the drain of history. Systemd flies in the face of
> everything Linux!

Ok, I'll bite. Red Hat is shipping systemd in stable RHEL 7 already, at a time where DEbian or Ubuntu for example is still in the process of adopting it. Hence: if anything Red Hat was the betatester for Debian here. Not vice versa.

Anyway, please complain about all this elsewhere. With slashdot et al there are more than enough forums around, where complains like yours can be vented. It's completely pointless trolling in our bug reporting system like you are doing.

Comment 5 Christopher 2015-01-19 18:33:48 UTC

(In reply to Lennart Poettering from comment #4)
> (In reply to dwillar from comment #2)
> > This is far from being resolved and certainly is not invalid. Why should the
> > greater Linux community be FORCED into being beta testers for Red Hat? It is
> > time the Linux community stood up to this systemd and turn it into something
> > useful or flush it down the drain of history. Systemd flies in the face of
> > everything Linux!
> 
> Ok, I'll bite. Red Hat is shipping systemd in stable RHEL 7 already, at a
> time where DEbian or Ubuntu for example is still in the process of adopting
> it. Hence: if anything Red Hat was the betatester for Debian here. Not vice
> versa.
> 
> Anyway, please complain about all this elsewhere. With slashdot et al there
> are more than enough forums around, where complains like yours can be
> vented. It's completely pointless trolling in our bug reporting system like
> you are doing.

Call me what you will, I don't mind, I'm fairly thick skinned. For the record, I live in a nice house, not under a bridge... please reserve the term 'troll' for those who actually deserve it.

Besides, if all you have by way of response is personal attacks, that says way more about you than it does about me! ;) might think about that, as well as the rest of it.

Setting that aside, what good is beta testing if the results are completely discarded and/or ignored? There are bugs here that have not been fixed, that you and your cohorts are essentially refusing to fix. That would be essentially all of them. Fix them and you'll have something to say about beta testing. If you won't fix them, a reason why would be a good start... ;)

You still haven't addressed freedom of choice... and, at this point, I'm guessing you won't. If you do, please remember the differences between 'de facto' and 'du jour' -- it is possible for freedom of choice to be officially permitted but still not available in these circumstances, and that is exactly what I'm worried about... and exactly what appears to be happening.

Again, if my choices are (a) Windows or (b) Linux with systemd, I'm choosing (a).

Use of freedesktop.org services, including Bugzilla, is subject to our Code of Conduct. How we collect and use information is described in our Privacy Policy.