Bug 20300 - unable to type <, > and | while using Finnish layout on a 101-key keyboard
Summary: unable to type <, > and | while using Finnish layout on a 101-key keyboard
Status: RESOLVED FIXED
Alias: None
Product: xkeyboard-config
Classification: Unclassified
Component: General (show other bugs)
Version: unspecified
Hardware: x86 (IA32) Linux (All)
: medium normal
Assignee: xkb
QA Contact:
URL: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubunt...
Whiteboard:
Keywords:
Depends on:
Blocks:
 
Reported: 2009-02-24 14:07 UTC by Bryce Harrington
Modified: 2009-02-26 15:03 UTC (History)
2 users (show)

See Also:
i915 platform:
i915 features:


Attachments

Description Bryce Harrington 2009-02-24 14:07:50 UTC
Forwarding this bug from a Ubuntu reporter:
https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xkeyboard-config/+bug/181595

[Fwiw, I searched through launchpad for other clear dupes of this bug, and there are several with issues relating to <>|\, but it was uncertain if they were dupes or other bugs that just had similar symptoms.]

[Problem]
The Finnish 101-key keyboards don't have the button which is mapped to <, > and |. So in order to fix this, the Finnish keymaps need to be extended with a secondary way of typing <, >, | when the preferred key is missing.

[Original Report]
This may affect also other layouts that were originally designed for a 102-key keyboard.
Inability to type <, > and | is very irritating while trying to use traditional UNIX applications.

I think the change should affect users with larger kbds as well, because this would make it easier to learn about these alternative ways of writing those characters.

Rctrl_switching is a good duct tape fix, but Ubuntu ought to have something that worked without tweaking.

I wonder, if any other layout suffers from the same problem.
Comment 1 Sergey V. Udaltsov 2009-02-24 15:29:16 UTC
answered there.
Comment 2 Sergey V. Udaltsov 2009-02-25 16:51:20 UTC
Copy from launchpad. Solution which is going to be implemented:

AltGr-Shift-8 to <
AltGr-Shift-9 to >
AltGr-Shift-i to |
AltGr-Shift-l to ¦
Comment 3 Sergey V. Udaltsov 2009-02-25 16:57:14 UTC
Committed, please check in git
Comment 4 Troy Korjuslommi 2009-02-26 00:36:37 UTC
<> and | (007C, bar) are on the missing key, and have a clear need.

I would not add the broken bar (00A6) to the layout, though. When we drafted the Finnish standard, we tried to avoid adding extraneous characters with no common use. We specifically excluded math, typography etc. symbols. Having extra characters available, with similar appearance to other characters (bar vs. broken bar), will confuse users and will inevitably lead to typos. The broken bar character is not commonly used, except in specialized applications. 

More importantly, there are only a limited number of positions on the keyboard. By defining a use for every position, future additions become impossible. The fact that we left as many positions as possible unused, is the reason this fix is now possible.

As an aside, I think this is a welcome addition to the layout. I recently noticed that at least the EeePC has combined the <>| key and zZ keys into one key, with a meta(a green) key used to activate the <>| functionality. The solution works, but it's clearly better to have a universal solution for all keyboards which are missing the key.
Comment 5 Sergey V. Udaltsov 2009-02-26 00:42:12 UTC
Which positions do you prefer? There is not much of a choice...
Comment 6 Sergey V. Udaltsov 2009-02-26 00:43:14 UTC
Sorry, I've asked wrong question. What's wrong with adding broken bar? Or do you have better candidates?
Comment 7 Toni Ruottu 2009-02-26 00:49:41 UTC
Troy: You do realize that broken bar is normally produced with AltGr+Shift+the102thkey? Atleast my Ubuntu does that. Isn't that part of the official Kotoistus-keymap then?
Comment 8 Troy Korjuslommi 2009-02-26 00:59:10 UTC
I recommend adding the bar (007C) to Shift+AltGr+L (level 4).

I see no reason for adding the broken bar. Just because it is on some other keyboard is not a valid reason. There are several characters and symbols which would be much more useful, and which are not added. Users should use the combinations specified in the compose file if they need those rare characters, or some application specific solution (e.g. layout programs, math programs have their own solutions for specific symbols).

Here are my recommendations:

Add < to level 4 of AE08 (8).
Add > to level 4 of AE09 (9).
Add | (007C, vertical bar) to level 4 of AC09 (L).

I.e.
key <AE08> { [  8, parenleft,  bracketleft,  less ] };
key <AE09> { [  9, parenright, bracketright, greater ] };
key <AC09> { [  l, L,          dead_stroke,  bar   ] };

Comment 9 Troy Korjuslommi 2009-02-26 01:03:34 UTC
The broken bar is not part of the standard. You can see the current positions on my pages at 

http://kotoistus.tksoft.com/linux/symbols_fi.txt

I will post these changes there shortly too. The data there now is all according to the standard, with no additions. This will be the first addition. It will not affect standards conformace, as additions are allowed. Replacements and omissions are not allowed.
Comment 10 Troy Korjuslommi 2009-02-26 01:11:50 UTC
The right windows key is specified as the compose key in this layout. Using the compose key we have a semi-universal (X11 only) solution for entering a large number of characters. 

FYI: There is some work being done to address this issue of entering random characters (ones not in the national layout). The CEN/MEEK (csc.fi/meek) workgroup is discussing the issue, and there is also work being done at ISO (revising 9995-3). As part of the MEEK workgroup, I have also proposed a "global IM" solution which would address this issue. You can find it on the MEEK site. 
Comment 11 Toni Ruottu 2009-02-26 01:24:01 UTC
Why L for bar? I looks more like a bar and is easier to access. The bar is needed rather frequently by people using command lines, and I'd really respect being able to press I instead of L.

Also, using I would cause all 102thkey features to appear in a compact triangle shaped area on most keyboards due to the physical layout of 8, 9 and I
Comment 12 Troy Korjuslommi 2009-02-26 02:32:36 UTC
You're right. 'i' on the keyboard looks like a bar. I see no reason why it wouldn't be a good spot for it. I.e.

key <AD08> { [  i, I, idotless, bar  ] };

L unchanged, i.e.
key <AC09> { [  l, L, dead_stroke, NoSymbol ] };
Comment 13 Toni Ruottu 2009-02-26 04:17:24 UTC
Could someone please GIT the final result and mark this as fixed again?
Comment 14 Toni Ruottu 2009-02-26 04:18:03 UTC
Where is the GIT repository anyway? And where is the map file inside it?
Comment 15 Troy Korjuslommi 2009-02-26 05:54:11 UTC
The URL is
http://cgit.freedesktop.org/xkeyboard-config/tree/symbols/fi
Let's wait for Sergey to do the actual change.
Comment 16 Sergey V. Udaltsov 2009-02-26 15:03:35 UTC
Done! Thanks lads for settling it so fast.


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