I would not be afraid to call lt(dvorak) - since you are the first one:)

But I have more serious question - how would you estimate the number of users of that variant, currently?

It is quite difficult question since all non-QWERTY layouts are very rarely used in Lithuania. That's primarily because of unavailability of hardware, so these layouts are somewhat popular only among the enthusiasts, who are determined enough to assemble a keyboard themselves. My rough estimate is that the US Dvorak layout is used by maybe only hundred of people (counting Windows users also), most of who use similar 'hacks' to bring in the Lithuanian letters. However, I'd make similar usage estimate for other Lithuanian layouts, such as Lekp(a). Thus I don't see any reasons for not including proposed layout.

-mark

> determined enough to assemble a keyboard themselves. My rough estimate is that
> the US Dvorak layout is used by maybe only hundred of people (counting Windows
> users also), most of who use similar 'hacks' to bring in the Lithuanian
> letters. However, I'd make similar usage estimate for other Lithuanian layouts,
> such as Lekp(a). Thus I don't see any reasons for not including proposed
> layout.
Well, USA is slightly larger than Lithuania, so if we consider percentage similar, the absolute figures would be quite different;)

Ok, let me change the question. Would you have any evidence that your layout is used by anyone but you and your neighbor? Was it advertised somewhere on the web? Did you get any feedback?

After a quick search I found the following:


http://www.vlkk.lt/lit/26544?page=4

At the sixth comment someone asks for a driver for the US/English Dvorak layout + Lithuanian letters.

https://lists.akl.lt/pipermail/akl/2007-May/003260.html

Here is entire subthread about Dvorak keyboard with Lithuanian letters. It becomes a QWERTY vs. Dvorak rant later, but here at least three users were looking for the layout. Someone suggested using something like virtual keyboard.


There's no official advertisement of the said layout though. This might be because the officials are strictly against any layout but the Lithuanian AŽERTY.

I added it as lv(dvorak), to the extras section

Hi,

(In reply to comment #4)
> After a quick search I found the following:
> 
> http://www.vlkk.lt/lit/26544?page=4
> 
> At the sixth comment someone asks for a driver for the US/English Dvorak layout
> + Lithuanian letters.

so, that's +1 user

> https://lists.akl.lt/pipermail/akl/2007-May/003260.html
> 
> Here is entire subthread about Dvorak keyboard with Lithuanian letters. It
> becomes a QWERTY vs. Dvorak rant later, but here at least three users were
> looking for the layout. Someone suggested using something like virtual
> keyboard.

I've just re-read this thread (in which I participated too), and it looks like there was one person participating in it, who actually used Dvorak (but didn't type Lithuanian letters), and another person who asked for such layout three times. That would be +2 users at best ,which totals to 3.

But then I also know that the guy who asked about this layout thrice in the thread (Mantas) has switched to the LEKP layout since (see bug 14096), which leaves us with only two users plus Mark (if he actually ever types Lithuanian).

> There's no official advertisement of the said layout though. This might be
> because the officials are strictly against any layout but the Lithuanian
> AŽERTY.

AFAIK, those officials have never attempted to shut down any attempts at creating or promoting new layouts, they simply don't become oficially "blessed", but neither is the default QWERTY layout, which is engraved on 99.9% of keyboards that actually have Lithuanian symbols on them and are on sale in LT.

I would suggest removing this layout until there is real demand for it. Another argument against it would be that the Dvorak layout is optimized for English, and not Lithuanian, thus at best it could be called "US Dvorak layout with Lithuanian letters" or similarly. There's already a bunch of Lithuanian keyboard layouts, most of which are not used widely (e.g. the old IBM layout, which was superceded by the newer standard in year 2000), why pollute that list with a yet another option for which there is no real demand?

Hi all,

(In reply to comment #6)
> AFAIK, those officials have never attempted to shut down any attempts at
> creating or promoting new layouts, they simply don't become oficially
> "blessed", but neither is the default QWERTY layout, which is engraved on 99.9%
> of keyboards that actually have Lithuanian symbols on them and are on sale in
> LT.

I agree that I might have been wrong about their intentions here, however I couldn't make a different conclusion looking at their public stance.

> I would suggest removing this layout until there is real demand for it.

Well, we can't imply that there are only three users of this layout using only the comments in the internet as source. One of the things I've tried to emphasize is that most of the users of this layout are technically savvy enough to do everything themselves, thus we don't see a lot of action around. For example I have four friends working in the field of software engineering who use Dvorak layout for most of the work, but need to type in Lithuanian occasionally. Three of them have solved the issue with Microsoft Custom Keyboard Creator, I and the last one have hacked xkb-data package. It would seem that there's no problem as no forum posts have been written, but this is not true in the reality.

> Another argument against it would be that the Dvorak layout is optimized for English,
> and not Lithuanian, 

The fact that Dvorak is not optimized for Lithuanian is not a blocker, especially considering that many people type lots of text in English and need to use Lithuanian layout only from time to time. In addition, Dvorak is still more optimized for Lithuanian than any of the QWERTY-based layouts, including AŽERTY. Hence the optimization isn't very important.

The real issue here is what we can offer for those who already type in Dvorak. If there was a compatible Lithuanian layout that Dvorak users could switch to without difficulty, there wouldn't be any problems. Currently I know no other solutions for this.

> <...> thus at best it could be called "US Dvorak layout with
> Lithuanian letters" or similarly.

I agree that it should be named as "US Dvorak layout with Lithuanian letters". This was my suggestion from the beginning.

-mark

Hi Mark,
glad to see you here!

(In reply to comment #7)
> (In reply to comment #6)
> > AFAIK, those officials have never attempted to shut down any attempts at
> > creating or promoting new layouts, they simply don't become oficially
> > "blessed", but neither is the default QWERTY layout, which is engraved on 99.9%
> > of keyboards that actually have Lithuanian symbols on them and are on sale in
> > LT.
> 
> I agree that I might have been wrong about their intentions here, however I
> couldn't make a different conclusion looking at their public stance.

I know the people behind that standard. They are its hardcore supporters to no end. However, their public stance doesn't really change much.

> > I would suggest removing this layout until there is real demand for it.
> 
> Well, we can't imply that there are only three users of this layout using only
> the comments in the internet as source.

Well, let me remind you Sergey's Comment #3. ;)

> One of the things I've tried to
> emphasize is that most of the users of this layout are technically savvy enough
> to do everything themselves, thus we don't see a lot of action around. For
> example I have four friends working in the field of software engineering who
> use Dvorak layout for most of the work, but need to type in Lithuanian
> occasionally. Three of them have solved the issue with Microsoft Custom
> Keyboard Creator, I and the last one have hacked xkb-data package. It would
> seem that there's no problem as no forum posts have been written, but this is
> not true in the reality.

*Occasionally* is the word I would emphasize in this paragraph above. You see, I do believe that in situations like yours, where (I guess) you usually type in English, but for some reason have to use Lithuanian sometimes, a layout that matches yours as closely as possible might be preferred. But as a Lithuanian, I doubt that anyone here would use such layout, because a) it was nonexistant up until now and b) there are layouts that are more optimized for Lithuanian (such as LEKP). How would you explain the logic behind a Lithuanian person who cares enough about ergonomics (which is already a very tiny percentage) using a layout optimized for English and not Lithuanian when there exist layouts optimized for Lithuanian? I don't see this as anything but an exception.

On the other hand, following this logic, we could create a French layout with Lithuanian letters, German, Swedish, Finnish, and Danish layouts with Lithuanian letters and so on (you get the point). The reason why I oppose this is because I just don't want to see the keyboard layout selection UI being cluttered with a bunch of exotic layouts that only 10 people in the whole wide world use (even if that UI is unnecessary for the most users). This could be done, but then why not do this for all layouts? Don't you type Latvian, Estonian, German etc.?  Why should Lithuanian be an exception from the rule here?

By the way, the aforementioned Danish, Swedish and Finnish layouts with Lithuanian letters would make more sense in this country, because some retailers import laptops with such keyboards (Lithuanian letters on laptop keyboards are VERY rare). Just yesterday a friend told me how he had to install a Swedish layout for some student just because her keyboard was engraved like that and she couldn't find punctuation characters when the default Lithuanian QWERTY layout was enabled.

> > Another argument against it would be that the Dvorak layout is optimized for English,
> > and not Lithuanian, 
> 
> The fact that Dvorak is not optimized for Lithuanian is not a blocker,
> especially considering that many people type lots of text in English and need
> to use Lithuanian layout only from time to time. In addition, Dvorak is still
> more optimized for Lithuanian than any of the QWERTY-based layouts, including
> AŽERTY. Hence the optimization isn't very important.

Again, my point was that those who don't care about ergonomics will simply use the default QWERTY, and those who do care have no reason to settle for Dvorak when there are better layouts. I think there aren't that many people who "type lots of text in English and need to use Lithuanian layout only from time to time", and even a tinier fraction of them will actually use Dvorak as their main English layout.

> The real issue here is what we can offer for those who already type in Dvorak.
> If there was a compatible Lithuanian layout that Dvorak users could switch to
> without difficulty, there wouldn't be any problems. Currently I know no other
> solutions for this.

Well, for anyone, who types Lithuanian (or any other Latin-based language for that matter) only occasionally, I would suggest to learn about the Compose key and use it instead. To enter an occasional Ą, Č, or Ū in the text this is more than enough, plus you wouldn't have to switch the layout, and you could combine as many diacritics as you want on one letter by just editing your Compose or ~/.XCompose file. Making new layouts up is not the best solution, IMO.


Mark, if you want to continue this discussion (or want to know more about the Compose key), maybe we should do this by email? I'm not sure we want to spam this bug with unrelated talk. :)

Lads, would you be able to come to some conclusion before the next release? The freeze is going to happen next Tuesday.

I haven't heard from Mark yet, so I still think this layout will not be popular.

But I think I can understand Mark's concerns too, so I think alternatively the layout could be renamed to lt(us_dvorak) and "US Dvorak Layout with Lithuanian Letters" (as Mark was suggesting in the first place). However, in that case I would probably suggest to make it work similarly to lt(us), that is, to add the letter ąčęėįšųū„“ž to AltGr layer, and letters ĄČĘĖĮŠŲŪŽ to AltGr-Shift layer instead of adding them to the normal and Shift layers as is done now.

Hi again,

Sorry about the delayed responding.

>I would suggest to learn about the Compose key and use it instead.

I don't think Compose key is the solution for the problem, because of the following reasons: 

1) if you want to use the layout on a different workstation, you have to bring the XCompose file with you

2) interferes with default keyboard shortcuts on most of applications that use a lot of them (qtcreator and compiz comes into my mind as I had several problems with that).

> However, in that case I would probably suggest to make it work similarly to 
> lt(us), that is, to add the letter ąčęėįšųū„“ž to AltGr layer, and letters 
> ĄČĘĖĮŠŲŪŽ to AltGr-Shift layer

I am not sure what benefits this change would introduce. In addition to that, a package with this layout has already been in the debian repositories for more than a month. I don't think introducing this modification would be a good idea.

> I think alternatively the layout could be renamed to lt(us_dvorak) and "US 
> Dvorak Layout with Lithuanian Letters"

I agree.

-mark

(In reply to comment #11)
> >I would suggest to learn about the Compose key and use it instead.
> 
> I don't think Compose key is the solution for the problem, because of the
> following reasons: 
> 
> 1) if you want to use the layout on a different workstation, you have to bring
> the XCompose file with you
> 
> 2) interferes with default keyboard shortcuts on most of applications that use
> a lot of them (qtcreator and compiz comes into my mind as I had several
> problems with that).

It was just a suggestion anyway. But:
1) to use lt(us_dvorak) layout, you still get to configure/install it on that another machine, so it's inconvenience in any case
2) in X.org, you can set pretty much any key as compose key. I'm sure you'd find one that doesn't interfere with shortcuts.

> > I think alternatively the layout could be renamed to lt(us_dvorak) and "US 
> > Dvorak Layout with Lithuanian Letters"
> 
> I agree.

> > However, in that case I would probably suggest to make it work similarly to 
> > lt(us), that is, to add the letter ąčęėįšųū„“ž to AltGr layer, and letters 
> > ĄČĘĖĮŠŲŪŽ to AltGr-Shift layer
> 
> I am not sure what benefits this change would introduce.

It brings consistency with the other layout, called lt(us) or "US Layout with Lithuanian Letters". It would also signal clearly that Lithuanian letters are secondary in this layout and that it's intended for people whose primary language of typing is English (or a programming language).

> In addition to that, a package with this layout has already been in the
> debian repositories for more than a month. I don't think introducing this
> modification would be a good idea.

If it's not Debian stable, then it's OK, I think. And even if it is Debian stable, the number of users of this layout is likely very tiny anyway, so nothing to be afraid of.

Created attachment 46774 [details]
lt(us_dvorak) layout definition

Hi Rimas,

> It was just a suggestion anyway. But:
> 1) to use lt(us_dvorak) layout, you still get to configure/install it on that
> another machine, so it's inconvenience in any case
> 2) in X.org, you can set pretty much any key as compose key. I'm sure you'd
> find one that doesn't interfere with shortcuts.

1) Additional five mouse clicks in GUI are not that hard.
2) Keyboard is not infinite, especially on a laptop ;-)

> It brings consistency with the other layout, called lt(us) or "US Layout with
> Lithuanian Letters". It would also signal clearly that Lithuanian letters are
> secondary in this layout and that it's intended for people whose primary
> language of typing is English (or a programming language).
> 

Ok, I made a patch that puts the Lithuanian letters into the AltGr layer. Please test if it works correctly. I had no problems.

-mark

Hi,

(In reply to comment #14)
> > It was just a suggestion anyway. But:
> > 1) to use lt(us_dvorak) layout, you still get to configure/install it on that
> > another machine, so it's inconvenience in any case
> > 2) in X.org, you can set pretty much any key as compose key. I'm sure you'd
> > find one that doesn't interfere with shortcuts.
> 
> 1) Additional five mouse clicks in GUI are not that hard.
> 2) Keyboard is not infinite, especially on a laptop ;-)
> 
> > It brings consistency with the other layout, called lt(us) or "US Layout with
> > Lithuanian Letters". It would also signal clearly that Lithuanian letters are
> > secondary in this layout and that it's intended for people whose primary
> > language of typing is English (or a programming language).
> > 
> 
> Ok, I made a patch that puts the Lithuanian letters into the AltGr layer.
> Please test if it works correctly. I had no problems.

I haven't tested, but it looks OK. There isn't much to test anyway... :)

Sergey, can you commit replace current lt(dvorak) with this lt(us_dvorak)?

Done. Please check from git

thanks Sergey!