The "nobreakspace" line could be in the "latin" file. --- /usr/share/X11/xkb/symbols/is 2011-11-12 00:23:00.000000000 +0000 +++ /usr/share/X11/xkb/symbols/is.new 2011-11-21 16:25:58.000000000 +0000 @@ -5,6 +5,10 @@ // fixes by Olafur Osvaldsson - oli@isnic.is // // $XFree86: xc/programs/xkbcomp/symbols/is,v 1.3 2002/11/26 01:57:25 dawes Exp $ +// Corrected according to the Icelandic standard for keyboards, +// IST 125:1995. Some positions are according to ISO/IEC 9995-3:1994 +// Added nobreakspace +// Changed some symbols to dead diacritics. default partial alphanumeric_keys xkb_symbols "basic" { @@ -13,21 +17,27 @@ name[Group1]="Iceland"; +// <AE00> = <TLDE> + key <AE00> { [dead_abovering, dead_diaeresis, notsign, hyphen ] }; key <AE02> { [ 2, quotedbl, twosuperior, oneeighth ] }; key <AE04> { [ 4, dollar, onequarter, currency ] }; key <AE11> { [odiaeresis, Odiaeresis, backslash, questiondown ] }; - key <AE12> { [ minus, underscore, ccedilla, dead_ogonek ] }; + key <AE12> { [ minus, underscore, dead_cedilla, dead_ogonek ] }; key <AD11> { [ eth, ETH, dead_diaeresis, dead_abovering ] }; - key <AD12> { [apostrophe, question, asciitilde, dead_macron ] }; + key <AD12> { [apostrophe, question, dead_tilde, dead_macron ] }; key <AC10> { [ ae, AE, asciicircum, dead_doubleacute ] }; - key <AC11> { [dead_acute, dead_circumflex, dead_circumflex ] }; - key <TLDE> { [ degree, diaeresis, notsign, notsign ] }; + key <AC11> { [dead_acute, dead_acute, dead_circumflex, dead_caron ] }; +// key <TLDE> { [dead_abovering, dead_diaeresis, notsign, hyphen ] }; +// <AC12> = <BKSL> + key <AC12> { [ plus, asterisk, dead_grave, dead_breve ] }; - key <BKSL> { [ plus, asterisk, grave, dead_breve ] }; +// <AB00> = <LSGT>, is in file pc: pc105 key <AB10> { [ thorn, THORN, dead_belowdot, dead_abovedot ] }; + key <SPCE> { [ space, space, nobreakspace, nobreakspace ] }; + include "level3(ralt_switch)" };
This patch is not applicable to the latest code. Could you please do it against the latest version and properly attach to the bug? Thanks!
Created attachment 53921 [details] [review] Correction to basic part of symbols/is
lovely! applied, thanks
This patch breaks fundamental keyboard functionality for most Icelandic Linux users, easy access to grave and asciitilde is in my opinion the right way of doing it. Please revert these changes: - key <AD12> { [apostrophe, question, asciitilde, dead_macron ] }; + key <AD12> { [apostrophe, question, dead_tilde, dead_macron ] }; + key <AC12> { [ plus, asterisk, dead_grave, dead_breve ] }; - key <BKSL> { [ plus, asterisk, grave, dead_breve ] };
Fedora bug report on the issue: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=826220
This has made it's way into Fedora 17 and this makes it impossible to type the tilda character without having to hammer the space bar as well. I've been speaking Icelandic for 40 some years and I've never seen a dead tilde in the language before :) For other Fedora 17 (and other distros as this gets propogated, a workaround is: xmodmap -e "keycode 35 = apostrophe question apostrophe question asciitilde dead_macron asciitilde" or just edit /usr/share/X11/xkb/symbols/is to fix.
I would like to hear some comments from the person who submitted the patch. Prefer to settle rather than overrule.
Created attachment 62269 [details] [review] Patch to revert the 2 dead keys introduced. I've attached a patch which applies cleanly onto the master branch to revert the 2 dead keys.
On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 07:03:16AM +0000, bugzilla-daemon@freedesktop.org wrote: > https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=43173 > > --- Comment #7 from Sergey V. Udaltsov <svu@gnome.org> 2012-05-30 00:03:16 PDT --- > I would like to hear some comments from the person who submitted the patch. > Prefer to settle rather than overrule. > Does a policy about keymaps exist and where can it be read? If not, why? If not, some questions are: For what kind of people (now, in the future) are (were) default keymaps and for who not? What are good, solid, consistent guidelines for selecting one keymap over others? Should work with most or all languages. What is the experience of people with other languages? #### "Since breaking out of bad habits, rather than acquiring new ones, is the toughest part of learning we must expect from that system permanent mental damage for most students exposed to it." P. xxxvii in: On the Cruelty of Really Teaching Computing Science Edsger W. Dykstra (Dijkstra) SIGCSE Bulletin 1989, 21(1), pp. xxv-xxxix. Also "www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/ # "The problems of the real world are primarily those you are left with when you refuse to apply their effective solutions." P. xxxviii in: On the Cruelty of Really Teaching Computing Science Edsger W. Dykstra (Dijkstra) SIGCSE Bulletin 1989, 21(1), pp. xxv-xxxix. Also "www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/ #
I would like to focus on what advantage is to the change you made? I struggle to find how this will benefit anyone and I know a few people who are already annoyed by the change. If it ain't broke...
I hear the same. The tilde char is so heavily used by *nix people and this change that requires people to hit space after the tilde key or it wont show up is not going over well with people. The backtick ` is also used but I think most people have been using bash's $() instead because I dont hear as many complaining about that.
Ah, yes. Here is a reference to the Icelandic Alphabet and keyboard layout: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icelandic_alphabet Just to show there are no dead tilde characters.
> Does a policy about keymaps exist and where can it be read? Only that: http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/XKeyboardConfig/Rules But that does not cover this conflict. In general, the default variant for the country should match, if possible, whatever engraved on the keyboards you will buy in the computer shops. If you want something different - create separate variant.
Seconded, please revert these changes: - key <AD12> { [apostrophe, question, asciitilde, dead_macron ] }; + key <AD12> { [apostrophe, question, dead_tilde, dead_macron ] }; + key <AC12> { [ plus, asterisk, dead_grave, dead_breve ] }; - key <BKSL> { [ plus, asterisk, grave, dead_breve ] }; I can't remember using a system where these keys were dead.
ok, done!
On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 12:57:00AM +0000, bugzilla-daemon@freedesktop.org wrote: > https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=43173 > > Tomas Edwardsson <tommi@tommi.org> changed: > > What |Removed |Added > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Status|RESOLVED |REOPENED > Resolution|FIXED | > > --- Comment #4 from Tomas Edwardsson <tommi@tommi.org> 2012-05-29 17:57:00 PDT --- > This patch breaks fundamental keyboard functionality for most Icelandic Linux > users, easy access to grave and asciitilde is in my opinion the right way of > doing it. > > Please revert these changes: > - key <AD12> { [apostrophe, question, asciitilde, dead_macron ] }; > + key <AD12> { [apostrophe, question, dead_tilde, dead_macron ] }; > > + key <AC12> { [ plus, asterisk, dead_grave, dead_breve ] }; > - key <BKSL> { [ plus, asterisk, grave, dead_breve ] }; > > -- It only "breaks" something (and then inside the person; how that person has functioned), what he is used to, and when he does not adapt. If not used to it, it breaks nothing! I ask "easy access" for what purpose? Why is a dead key so difficult (for you(singular and plural))? Maybe you mean easier access for you, thus automatically more difficult to access the function of a dead key for others. That is not a method that maximizes equality of access (of both functions). You show me, that you think about yourself, not others. For whom (in the past, now, and in the future) are the old definitions _not_ an "easy" access (to the function of a dead key)? Strange, even Microsoft and Apple have "dead_grave", but neither "dead_tilde". Dead keys serve a purpose. What is then the substitution for them? Does it provide the same easyness, as you want for you personally? "for most Icelandic Linux users". What is the source for this statement. I do not trust Icelandic computer folks concerning what they say about Icelandic and computer stuff. The actually say only what they do, not what others do. Foreigners! Always ask for (all available) sources of what they say (claim) (and even the sources for the sources). Also in which category it belongs, if it is not evident form the source itself. Even though you can not read Icelandic, you can compare the categories with those of your own or other countries. If a category is missing call for it. If in doubt, ask these people where other (independent) sources are, similar to those in your own country. If they do not know it or do not use it, you know, that they gave you a biased or even wrong information. Foreigners, that do not have (enough) experience with dead keys, should try some to get that experience. Separate opinions (stated as facts) from facts.
Bjarni, We can use your argument to swap the Z and Y keys on the keyboard. Now I am certain thats not how you are used to having it and I'm pretty sure you would also complain. Would you say adapting to that change is a good idea or would you want to have the Z and Y keys where they have always been (and where they should be according to your language)?
On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 01:02:51AM +0000, bugzilla-daemon@freedesktop.org wrote: > https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=43173 > > --- Comment #6 from ra@ra.is 2012-05-29 18:02:51 PDT --- > This has made it's way into Fedora 17 and this makes it impossible to type the > tilda character without having to hammer the space bar as well. If you (singular and plural) know how dead keys really work, then it is not necessary to "hammer" the space bar, except (just push normally) for two keys that come next after the dead ones. > I've been speaking Icelandic for 40 some years and I've never seen a dead tilde > in the language before :) > That just tells something about your (singular, even plural) lack of knowledge (":)" is no excuse for it). Are Icelandic keyboards for _that_ language (tongue) only? Is (may, must, shall) the (general) Icelandic keyboard only (be) for Icelandic, no Danish, French, German, Scandinavian languages nor other languages (tongues) that use the same code table (ISO-8859-1 or equivalent) as is used in Iceland? > For other Fedora 17 (and other distros as this gets propogated, a workaround > is: > > xmodmap -e "keycode 35 = apostrophe question apostrophe question asciitilde > dead_macron asciitilde" > > or just edit /usr/share/X11/xkb/symbols/is to fix. > Yes, knowledgeable users can change that as superusers. What about those (present and future) users, who are not knowledgeable (enough), and are thus stuck with the original(?)(, first) definitions? What about those users, that are not superusers (root)? Everybody can get the symbol he wants with the corresponding dead key (even though it does not appear immediately). How do you (singular and plural) (want other people to) write Danish ä with a nodead key (also as easily as with a dead one)? Do other (present, future) users never want to write foreign characters with an Icelandic keyboard (the easy(?) way)? (Not even those that learn a foreign language)? Or do they never want (to try) to use GNU/Linux (more)? Why? Should (may, must) the keycodename depend on the operation system?
I kindly ask you to maintain general politeness, please - and stick to the technical discussion, ok? The most important questions for now are: 1. What is engraved on the keyboards? 2. What are the expectations of the average user? Not programmer. 3. What is the layout most comfortable for the Icelandic language? The interests of people who want to type German/Danish/English... are secondary - in case of the conflict, comfortable typing in Icelandic takes precedence. Of course, unless you can prove that usage of those languages in Iceland is comparable to the usage of Icelandic. xk-c does not make any keyboard layout default just on the technical grounds, if people are used to something different. That is where we introduce variants. We are not pushing layouts on people. Educating them is not the mission of xk-c.
On Tue, Jun 05, 2012 at 12:04:23AM +0000, bugzilla-daemon@freedesktop.org wrote: > https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=43173 > > --- Comment #19 from Sergey V. Udaltsov <svu@gnome.org> 2012-06-04 17:04:23 PDT --- > I kindly ask you to maintain general politeness, please - and stick to the > technical discussion, ok? > Some questions and remarks to clear things Is there a time limit (soft, hard) for submissions? > The most important questions for now are: > 1. What is engraved on the keyboards? Engravings (marks) are not the same on every keyboard (laptops counted as keyboards) (in stores), so I suppose all variants known to the submitter should be counted for. After the purchase, some keys can get a glued on label with the (hopefully) "usual" symbol(s) on it, if they are not already "correctly" engraved. > 2. What are the expectations of the average user? Not programmer. This is asking either for statistical data or speculations. I do not know any data for this. How did other people get their data? > 3. What is the layout most comfortable for the Icelandic language? The > interests of people who want to type German/Danish/English... are secondary - > in case of the conflict, comfortable typing in Icelandic takes precedence. Of > course, unless you can prove that usage of those languages in Iceland is > comparable to the usage of Icelandic. > The website "en.wikikedia.org" names three different kind of layout (mechanical, visual and functional). What of these do you mean? The question is asking for statistical data or guessing. One can say, that the final visual layout is (should, is expected to be) now the same (why is it so?) for all characters (including punctuation and a dead key) used in Icelandic (say in a novel, in mother tongue classes at school). So I can not see any difference in comfort (same visual layout), if the set of characters is confined to Icelandic. > xk-c does not make any keyboard layout default just on the technical grounds, > if people are used to something different. That is where we introduce variants. > > We are not pushing layouts on people. Educating them is not the mission of > xk-c. > I hope (better and best) quality is a part of it. Having policy must be a part of it, for example providing information about good (better, best) content of source files, and what is demanded for acceptance.
> Is there a time limit (soft, hard) for submissions? No, not really. Actually, I am not sure I understand your question. Bugzilla is open 24/7. > Engravings (marks) are not the same on every keyboard (laptops > counted as keyboards) (in stores), so I suppose all variants known > to the submitter should be counted for. From my humble experience, usually keyboards in one country stick to one "de-facto standard" engraving. Is that not the case for Iceland? I mean the letters/numbers/punctuation. Of course, media/functional keys do not count. > After the purchase, some > keys can get a glued on label with the (hopefully) "usual" > symbol(s) on it, if they are not already "correctly" engraved. That is irrelevant here. Definitely those things should not be in the default layout. > > 2. What are the expectations of the average user? Not programmer. > This is asking either for statistical data or speculations. I do > not know any data for this. How did other people get their data? As I said, usually it is reasonably clear - by just looking at the keyboard purchased in the shop. For example, in Russia for some long while the default layout in symbols/ru was some ancient layout from the times of DOS. People had to use the ru(winkeys) variant explicitly if they wanted to get the layout that most of the keyboards have engraving for. I had to change that - rename ru(winkeys) to default ru, and the previous default ru to ru(legacy). And that was understood by everybody - because that is what is engraved. So I am asking again - is there de-facto standard in the Icelandic computer shops? Are you saying that layouts are so different, that we cannot adequately choose the standard? What about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyboard_layout#Icelandic ? > The website "en.wikikedia.org" names three different kind of > layout (mechanical, visual and functional). What of these do you > mean? I really do not know. The only answer I can give - "most popular" > I hope (better and best) quality is a part of it. For the default layout the only quality I know is the quality of the following the de-facto standard, if one exists. If not... I do not know how to measure the quality then. Actually, there is one way - trying to organise voting in some reasonably popular national Linux-related site (for Russia, it was linux.org.ru) - and pick the layout used by the most. That is some fair way to find the standard. > Having policy > must be a part of it, for example providing information about good > (better, best) content of source files, and what is demanded for > acceptance. I've given the reference to existing policy document. That is, admittedly, lacks some important points. Perhaps after our discussion here I'll add something.
The keyboard layout shown at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyboard_layout#Icelandic is the de-facto standard Icelandic keyboard layout. I've seen some keyboards missing the <>| button between shift and z, but other than that, they're pretty much all like shown on Wikipedia. This is the layout that >99% of the people use across all platforms.
About <>| - that happens in other countries as well, no problem. "Long shift" vs "Short shift" keyboards. So, that should be the default layout. Is that currently the case, in git?
> So, that should be the default layout. Is that currently the case, in git? Yup, the xkb/symbols/is from xkeyboard-config master looks great. :-)
On Fri, Jun 01, 2012 at 09:20:46PM +0000, bugzilla-daemon@freedesktop.org wrote: > https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=43173 > > Sergey V. Udaltsov <svu@gnome.org> changed: > > What |Removed |Added > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Status|REOPENED |RESOLVED > Resolution| |FIXED > > --- Comment #15 from Sergey V. Udaltsov <svu@gnome.org> 2012-06-01 14:20:46 PDT --- > ok, done! > > -- You created a falsity as you applied a reverse patch. Why?
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