< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 29 OF 29 ·
Later Kibitzing> 
Nov0914   first25plus5: I went back some moves and had a look at the line 49….Qxf5+ 50.Kg1 Rd7 51.Qxb5 Qe6 52.Qc5 Kg6 53.Rc6 e4 etc etc. I think White should now play 54.Qd4 then what would follow would be 54....e3 55.Qxc4 Qe5 56.Qg4+ Kh7 57.Qd4 Qxd4 58.cxd4. 

Nov0215   kamagong24: https://youtu.be/gDeuHsEMn8 

Apr0316   first25plus5: I've done some further extensive work on the 62.b5 line. White is better to play 62.Kf3. I will post the 'main line'. 

Apr0316   first25plus5: Main line summary:
45...Qe3 46.Qxd6 Re8 47.Qd7+ Re7 48.Qc6 Qxe4 49.d6 Qd3+ 50.Kg1 Re8 51.Ra1 h5 52.Qxb5 Rd8 53.Qb7+ Kg8 54.Qe7 Qxd6 55.Qxd6 Rxd6 56.Ra8+ Kf7 57.Rc8 Rd1+ 58.Kh2 Ke7 59.Rxc4 Kd6 60.Rc8 Rc1 61.Kg3 Kd5
After the next White next move the next several moves can be transposed in parts but soon come to the same situation before continuing
62.Kf3 Rf1+ 63.Ke3 Re1+ 64.Kd3 e4+ 65.Kd2 Rg1 66.Rc5+ Kd6 67.Ke3 Re1+ 68.Kd4 e3 69.Kd3 e2 70.Kd2 Rb1 71.Kxe2 Rb2+ 72.Ke3 Rxg2 73.Kf3 Rg1 74.Kf4. 

Apr1116   Howard: Excuse me....for those of us who aren't inclined right now to wade through a quagmire of 28 pages (so far) of commentary.. ...was the final position a draw or not ?
In fact, I just read on another website that the computer should have played 45.Qd7+. Would that have won ?
What's the BOTTOM LINE ? 

Apr1116   DWINS: Good question, <Howard>. I'd also like to know what the bottom line is. I let Stockfish 7 chew on it for a awhile. 45.Qd7+ seems to be better than 45.Ra6. As a matter of fact, 45.Ra6 didn't even make Stockfish's top four choices. I didn't do any forward/backward sliding, but I let Stockfish reach a depth of 37. 45.Qd7+ Kg8 46.Ra7 Bf8 47.Qf7+ Kh7 48.Ke2 Rd8 49.Qb7 Rb8 50.Qd7 Kh8 51.Qf7 Rd8 52.Qb7 Rb8 53.Qxb6 Rxb6 54.Ra8 Kg8 55.Bf3 g6 56.fxg6 f5 57.g4 fxg4 58.Bxg4 Rxg6 59.Kf3 (1.68) I have no idea if the final position is a draw, but here's a quick analysis by Stockfish 7: 45...Qe3 46.Qxd6 Re8 47.Qc7+ Re7 48.Qc6 Qxe4 49.d6 Qxf5+ 50.Kg1 Rd7 51.Qxb5 Qe6 52.Qc5 Kg6 (0.78) 

Apr1516   Howard: Anyone else care to contribute ?
Thanks, DWINS ! 

Apr2916   first25plus5: Regarding the quick analysis by Stockfish 7 mentioned on April112016  sideline 49....Qxf5+ etc is a sideline that keeps going with 53.Rc6 e4 54.Qd4 (54.b5 is also possible and is another line) and continues on. White is quite good. Black should instead play the 'main line' 49....Qd3+. 

Apr2916   first25plus5: Regarding the bottom line. I've just focused on helping find the moves. By doing this maybe a clear picture will emerge one day.
The 'main line' of Apr032016 ends at an interesting junction point and it will be interesting to see where this eventually leads. 

May1216   VGA: According to the analysis it was not a drawing position if properly played by White. White had a slight advantage, so Kasparov should have pressed onwards but maybe he was tired, shaken or made a mistake and calculated his position as very bad. 

Jul2516   first25plus5: I've had a major upgrade in my computer so am able to analyse this much better. I currently now believe the 49...Bxf5+ line is what Black should play.
Therefore:
45...Qe3 46.Qxd6 Re8 47.Qd7+ Re7 48.Qc6 Qxe4 49.d6
then
49...Qxf5+ 50.Kg1 Rd7 51.Qxb5 Qe6 52.Qc5 Kg6 53.Rc6 e4 (which has been collated elsewhere).
But now its unclear where White should go to from here. 

Aug0916
  WorstPlayerEver: Still 26. f4 is a weird move for a computer; SF7 drops it. 

Jan2417   first25plus5: Correction on note Jul25, it's 49...Qxf5+ (not Bishop takes). 

May0317   first25plus5: After twenty years 
45...Qe3 46.Qxd6 Re8 47.Qd7+ Re7 48.Qc6 Qxe4 49.d6 Qxf5+ 50.Kg1 Rd7 51.Qxb5 Qe6 52.Qc5 Kg6 53.Rc6 e4 

Jul2017   first25plus5: Thanks to others it looks like 49...Qd3+ is the line now. I'll post a brief summation next week. 

Jul2217   dgontar: 37. Qb6 is not better than 37.Be4, Dionyseus. I analyzed several variations with my computer, Stockfish, and they resulted in draws, all of them. Here is one: 37.Qb6 Rxa2 38.Rxa2 Ra8 39.Ra5 Qf8 40.Qxb5 e4 41.Kf1 Rb8 42.Qc6 Rc8 43.Qb6 Kh7 44.Qe3 Ra8 45.Bxe4 Be5 46.Qc5 Qb8 47.Qxc4 Rxa5 48.bxa5 Qb2 49.a6 Bxc3 50.Bd3 Bd4 51.Qc2 Qa1+ 52.Qb1 Qa5 53.Qe1 Qa4 54.g3 Qa2 55.Qe2 Qa1+ 56.Kg2 Qg1+ 57.Kf3 Be5 58.Qf2 Qd1+ 59.Ke3 Bc7 60.Qf1 Qb3 61.Qf3 Qb2 62.h4 Bd6 63.a7 Qb6+ 64.Ke2 Qxa7 65.Kf1 Kg8 66.Kg2 Qc5 67.Kh3 Qc3 68.Qe3 Kf8 69.Kg2 Be5 70.Qe4 Qd2+ 71.Be2 Qc3 72.Qf3 Ke7 73.Bd3 Kd6 74.Kh3 Qb3 75.Qe3 Ke7 76.Qe4 Kd6 77.Qf3 Kc5 78.Qe3+ Kd6 79.Kg2 Qxd5+ 80.Be4 Qc4 1/21/2 and if instead there is played 61.d6 you have 61...Qb6+ 62.Ke2 Qxd6 63.Qf4 Qb6 64.Qg4 Qc6 65.Qe4 Qb6 66.Qb7 Qxb7 67.axb7 Bxg3 68.h4 1/21/2 and in another variation 37. Be4 resulted in victory.
37.Be4 Qd8 38.Kh2 Rcb8 39.Ra6 Kf8 40.Ra7 Rxa7 41.Qxa7 Rb6 42.Qa8 Bb8 43.Ra7 Qe8 44.Ra6 Rxa6 45.Qxa6 Qd7 46.Qe6 Qe8 47.Kg3 Bc7 48.Kf2 Qd8 49.Ke3 Qb8 50.Ke2 Qe8 51.Qa6 Qb8 52.d6 Bxd6 53.Bb7 e4 54.Qxb5 Be5 55.Qc5+ Bd6 56.Qd5 Bg3 57.Ba6 Qe5 58.Bxc4 Ke7 59.Qf7+ Kd6 60.Qg8 Kc6 61.Qc8+ Kb6 62.Qa6+ Kc7 63.Be6 Qd6 64.Qa7+ Kd8 65.Qa8+ Kc7 66.Qxe4 Be5 67.Qc4+ Kd8 68.Bd5 Qd7 69.g4 Qc7 70.Kd3 Qd7 71.b5 Bc7 72.Kc2 Bb6 73.Bc6 Qe7 74.h4 Bf2 75.Bf3 Qd7 76.Qb4 Qe7 77.Qa5+ Qc7 78.Qa8+ Qc8 79.Qa2 Qd7 80.Bc6 Qe7 81.Qa5+ Kc8 82.Qa6+ Kc7 83.Qb7+ Kd6 84.Qb8+ Qc7 85.Qa8 Kc5 86.h5 Be3 87.Qa3+ Kb6 88.c4 Qh2+ 89.Kb3 Qb8 90.Bf3 Qc7 91.Qa6+ Kc5 92.Bb7 Bf2 93.Qa7+ Qb6 94.Qa3+ Kd4 95.Qe7 Kd3 96.Qe4+ Kd2 97.Qd5+ Bd4 98.Kb4 Qa7 99.Ba6 Ke1 100.c5 Be3 101.Qc4 Kf2 102.b6 Qe7 103.b7 Qe5 104.Qe2+ Kg3 105.Qxe3+ 10 and that seems to refute your claim about Rcb8, although your move is played 1 move earlier than in my variation. 

Jul2217   dgontar: my computer analyzed one variation of 37...Rcb8 to a draw but I doubt this holds in all variations and with best play on both sides I think there is a win for white. 37...Rcb8 38.Ra6 Qd8 39.Kh2 Kf8 40.Ra7 Rxa7 41.Qxa7 Rb6 42.Qa8 Bb8 43.Ra6 h5 44.Ra7 h4 45.Rb7 Rxb7 46.Qxb7 Qe8 47.Qb6 Ke7 48.Qf2 Bd6 49.Qxh4 Qa8 50.Qe1 Qa7 51.Qe2 Qb6 52.g3 Ke8 53.h4 Kf8 54.Qe1 Ke7 55.Kg2 Ke8 56.Qe2 Ke7 57.Qg4 Kf7 58.Qh5+ Kg8 59.Qe2 Bb8 60.Qd2 Kf8 61.h5 Kg8 62.h6 Qd8 63.hxg7 Kxg7 64.Qd1 Qe7 65.Qg4+ Kf8 66.Qh5 Kg7 67.d6 Qxd6 68.Kh3 Qe7 69.Bd5 Qf8 70.Qg6+ Kh8 71.Be4 Ba7 72.Qh5+ Kg7 73.Bc6 Qh8 74.Qxh8+ Kxh8 75.Bxb5 Kg7 76.Bxc4 Kf8 77.Bd5 Be3 78.Kh4 Bf2 79.Bf3 Ke7 80.c4 Be1 81.b5 Bf2 82.Be4 Kd6 83.Kh5 Bxg3 84.b6 Bf2 85.b7 Ba7 86.c5+ Ke7 87.Kg6 Bb8 88.Kg7 Bc7 89.Bf3 e4 90.Bxe4 Be5 91.Bd5 Bb8 92.Kg6 Ba7 93.Be4 Bb8 94.Bh1 Ba7 95.Kg7 Bb8 96.Bg2 Bf4 97.Kh7 Bb8 98.Bc6 Be5 99.Kg7 Bg3 100.Kh6 Bb8 101.Bg2 Ba7 102.Bd5 Kd7 103.Kg7 Ke7 104.Be4 Bb8 105.Kg6 1/21/2 but if instead white plays in this variation 54. g4 there is a win.
54.g4 Bb8 (54...Be7 55.Qd2 Ke8 56.Kg2 Kf8 57.g5 fxg5 58.hxg5 Qd8 59.f6! )
55.g5 Ke7 56.Kh3 Ba7 57.Qg2 Qe3+ 58.Kg4 Bb8 59.d6+ Bxd6 60.Kh5 Kf8 61.Bc6 e4 62.Bxb5 Qf3+ 63.Qg4 

Jul2617   first25plus5: Final game position:
After analysis elsewhere, I'm convinced at a draw after spending time going through it myself. 45...Qe3 46.Qxd6 Re8 47.Qd7+ Re7 48.Qc6 Qxe4 49.d6 Qd3+ 50.Kg1 Re8 51.Ra1 h5 is the way. All subsequent lines have been deeply analysed to draws. I have collated it all into a file. 

Jan2618   yurikvelo: My findings confirm draw in a final position and 45.Ra6? as a "draw blunder" https://pastebin.com/mD0jGM2L < multiPV full game 

Apr3019
  whiteshark: Seriously, Garry?! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SC... ;) What the he11 were you thin♔? 

Jul1819
  ajk68: 1) +0.61 (43 ply) 45...Qe3 46.Qxd6 Re8 47.Qd7+ Re7 48.Qc6 Qxe4 49.d6 Qd3+ 50.Kg1 Re8 51.Ra1 h5 52.Kh2 h4 53.Qxb5 Rd8 54.Qc6 Kf8 55.Qc7 Qxd6 56.Qxc4 e4+ 57.Kg1 Re8 58.Re1 Qe5 59.b5 Qxf5 60.b6 e3 61.Qxh4 Qc5 62.b7 e2+ 63.Kh2 Qb5 64.Qb4+ Qxb4 65.cxb4 Rb8 66.Rxe2 Rxb7 67.Rb2 Ke7 68.Kg3 Kd6 69.Kf4 Kd5 70.Kf5 Kc4 71.Kg6 Kb5 72.Re2 Kc4 73.Re4+ Kd5 2) +2.75 (43 ply) 45...Qxc6 46.dxc6 Rc8 47.Ra5 Bc7 48.Rxb5 Rb8 49.Rd5 Rd8 50.Rc5 Ke8 51.Ke2 Ra8 52.Rxc4 Bd6 53.Bd5 Ra7 54.b5 Bc7 55.Rg4 Bb6 56.Kd3 Kf8 57.Rg6 Ke7 58.Be6 Kd6 59.Bd7 Ra3 60.Rxg7 Ba5 61.Ke4 Rxc3 62.Rf7 Rc4+ 63.Kf3 h5 64.Rxf6+ Kc5 65.Re6 Bc7 66.Be8 Kxb5 67.f6 Rf4+ 68.Ke2 Re4+ 69.Kd3 Rf4 70.Bxh5 Rf2 71.f7 3) +9.46 (43 ply) 45...Qd8 46.Qxd6 Qxd6 47.Rxd6 Ra8 48.Rd7+ Ke8 49.Rxg7 Ra1+ 50.Ke2 Ra2+ 51.Ke3 Ra6 52.Rb7 Kd8 53.Rxb5 Kc7 54.Rc5+ Kd7 55.Ra5 Rd6 56.Ra8 Rb6 57.Ra7+ Kd8 58.Ra5 Kd7 59.d6 Kd8 60.Rc5 Ra6 61.Rc7 Rxd6 62.Rc6 Rxc6 63.Bxc6 Kc7 64.Be4 Kb6 65.Kf2 Kb5 66.Kg3 Kb6 67.Kh4 Kb5 68.Kg4 Kb6 69.Kg3 Kc7 70.Kh4 Kb8 71.Kg4 Kc7 72.Kh5 Kd6 73.Kxh6 Kd7 74.Kg6 

Nov0620   yurikvelo: UPDATE 06.11.2020, SFDevlatest
D=60, 14 784 MN, 25.1 MTBHits
+0,12 45. ... Qe3 46.Qxd6 Re8 47.Qd7+ Re7 48.Qc6 Qxe4 49.d6 Qd3+ 50.Kg1 Re8 51.Ra1 h5 52.Qxb5 Rd8D=64, 15 584 MN, 63.5 MTBHits
=0,00 53.Qb7+ Kg8 54.Qf3 Qxd6 55.Qxh5 e4 56.Qg4 Qd3 57.Kh2 e3 58.b5 Qd6+ 59.Kh1 Qd2 60.Qxc4+ Kf8 61.Qh4 Kg8 D=63, 952 MN, 4.5 MTBHits
=0,00 62.Re1 Qxc3 63.b6 Qb3 64.Qe4 Qxb6 65.Qxe3 Qb8 66.Qe2 Qc7 67.Qf3 Rb8 68.Rd1 Re8 69.Qh5 Rb8 D=66, 1 880 MB, 18 MTBHits
=0,00 70.Re1 Qd6 71.Re8+ Rxe8 72.Qxe8+ Kh7 73.Qe2 Kg8 D=74, 15 357 MN, 116 MTBHits
=0,00 74.Qe3 Qd7 75.Qf2 Qb7 76.Qf4 Qb1+ 77.Kh2 Qc2 78.Kg1 Kh7 79.Qh4+ Kg8 80.Qg4 Qb1+ 81.Kh2 Qb8+ 

Jun0421   staycrunchy: Computer Analysis Update:
Hardware
* 2 x Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E52690 v4 @ 2.60GHz
* 256G RAM, 200 GB Hash
* Samsung 980 SSD
Chess Software:
* Stockfish 13 + NNUE (06/04/21)
* stockfish_13_linux_x64_bmi2
* nn62ef826d1a6d.nnue
* 6piece WDL (67GB) tablebase
sci4.6 Settings
* Contempt 24
* Skill Level 20
* SzyzygyProbDepth 1
* Move Overhead 10
* Multiple variations 1
Results:
Depth 77/97
TBHits: 100090928
Nps: 39550580 n/s
Hash Full: 92%
Time: 1635s
Nodes: 64681533K (40000 kn/s)
45.Ra6
( [Stockfish 13] 77:+0.07 45.Ra6 Qe3 46.Qxd6 Re8 47.Qd7+ Re7 48.Qc6
Qxe4 49.d6 Qd3+ 50.Kg1 Re8 51.Ra1 h5 52.Qxb5 Rd8 53.Qc6 Kg8 54.Kh2 h4
55.b5 Qg3+ 56.Kh1 Qxc3 57.Rg1 Qd4 58.b6 Qxd6 59.Qxc4+ Qd5 60.Qc7 Rd7
61.Qc2 Kh7 62.Rc1 Rd8 63.Rb1 Qb7 64.Qe2 e4 65.Qe1 Re8 66.Rb3 Kg8 67.
Qc1 Qd7 68.Rb4 Qd6 69.Qb1 Qc6 70.b7 Rb8 71.Rxe4 Rxb7 72.Qa2+ Rf7 73.
Rxh4 Qe8 74.Qc4 Qe1+ 75.Kh2 Qe5+ 76.Qf4 Qxf4+ 77.Rxf4 Rc7 78.Kg3 Rb7
79.Kh4 Rb5 80.Kh5 Kh7 81.Rf2 Rb3 82.Kg4 Rb5 83.Rf3 Rb2 84.Kg3 Kg8 85.
Rc3 Rb1 86.Kg4 Rb5 87.Rf3 Rb2 88.g3 Rb5 89.Rf4 Rb3 90.Kh4 Rc3 91.Rb4
Rd3 92.Kg4 Kh7 93.Rc4 Rb3 )
45. ...Qe3 is best move, with high likelihood of draw. 

Jul0421   first25plus5: I've very recently finished using Stockfish14 (including Tablebases and NNUE) to look at various points (of the previous posts since I last posted) along the way, further. Thanks to those who have posted them all in the last three and a half years or so. It seems the clear 'mainline' is (which has been posted not by me before) as follows:
45...Qe3 46.Qxd6 Re8 47.Qd7+ Re7 48.Qc6 Qxe4 49.d6 Qd3+ 50.Kg1 Re8 51.Ra1 h5 52.Kh2 h4 53.Qxb5 Rd8 54.Qc6 Kg8 55.b5 Qxc3 56.Rd1 Qb3 57.Rc1 Kh7 58.b6 Qe3 59.Rd1. 

Jul2521   first25plus5: Further update:
45...Qe3 46.Qxd6 Re8 47.Qd7+ Re7 48.Qc6 Qxe4 49.d6 Qd3+ 50.Kg1 Re8 51.Ra1 h5 52.Kh2 h4 53.Qxb5 Rd8 54.Qc6 Kg8 55.b5 Qxc3 56.Rd1 Qb3 57.Rc1 Kh7
and now
58.Kh1 Qe3 59.Qxc4 e4 60.Qf1 Rxd6 61.Re1 Qd3 62.Qf4
also as posted elsewhere not by me.
Now a new move I suggest 62....Rd4. 



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